Greetings,

Upon reading recently Salustii about Catilinian conspiracy, I was happy to find here battle scenario by Mr. Crespi about the final stand of Catilina at Pistoria. However there are several issues according to Salustii that are not presented in the scenario.
1. Salustii says that Catilina ordered all the horses away: "...and then having ordered all the horfes away to put the more resolution into his men by making the danger of all alike..." (LXII)
2. About the terrain of the battle: "For as the plain had on the left mountain and on the right a craggy rock, he drew up eight battallions in front, and the rest he place close in the rear, to relieve them upon occasions."
3. Salustii put a special emphasys that few of Catilina's troops had proper equipment, so I guess that means more auxilia and lights?
4. The battle started with clash of light troops according to Salustii (LXIII) and in the C&C scenario Catilina's army doesn't have them at all.

Kind regards,

Tomek

Hi Tomek,
I'm happy you've found this map after reading Sallustius... and I'm even more happy to try to update it at its best.
This is a first update... what do you think about it?

- added mountains on Catiline left and crags on Catiline right
- removed catilinian cavalry
- added more light/auxilia (Catiline)
- removed 1 heavy and 1 medium infantry (Catiline)
- changed initial army deployment

Do you think mountains and crags should be unpassable?
Maybe Catiline should command a Medium Infantry (instead of Heavy)?
Do you think I could remove 2nd Catilinian leader?
...in the end it has been a total Catiline defeat.


Please let me know.
Thank you
(also added VSAV Vassal file to playtest it)

Hi Alessandro,

I am glad to be of some help and happy to discuss these issues with you and whoever else would be interested. Speaking on the source - I found bi-lingua (lat./en) issue of Salustii: http://www.archive.org/details/ccrispisalustiib00sall
Unfortunatelly my knowledge of Latin is zero, and as this is pretty old book, I can't say if the translation is good.
Catiline is said to have been with "detached party", moving arond the front lines. If you can understand better: "Interea Catilina cum expeditis in prima acie versari ; laborantibus succurrere; integros pro sauciis arceserre; omnia providere; multum ipse pugnare,saepe hostem ferire..."
I guess that it was kind of personal guards and best soldiers from his supporters. In game terms that can be medium infantry as it is strong enough to be and 'elite' part of his poor armed army and on the other hand less heavy than the regular heavies on the other side.
There has been two commanders on the flanks on Catilinian side but it it said that they died at early stage. Salustii names only Petronius as Roman commander.

The scale of the battle was relatively small if I am not mistaken, so probably there could be less troops on the battlefield from both sides. You have made it 16/18 units wich is quite a mighty clash.

I would vote for
- one auxilia and two lights less for Catilina (at least)
- medium instead of heavy infantry with him
- without another Catilinian commander
- one Roman commander
- instead of 4 heavies on Roman side - one heavy inf. with Petreus and two medium, lined in the centre. (the battle was won throught the centre)

However note that I am fresh player to this awesome game (less than 20 games) and I lack the experience to judge in game terms , so these above are more of suggestion nature.

Best regards and thanks for everything you are doing here.

Tomek

Hi,
I agree with your suggestions and modified scenario setup again.
Due to reduced army size I've also reduced Victory conditions to 6 banners (instead of 8).


Let me know.
Thank you
(also added VSAV Vassal file to playtest it)

I have been following this discussion with interest.

It is difficult to produce a scenario from so little historical information, but what do we know?

The battlefield was restricted by mountains and rocky ground. This was probably a sound tactical choice by Cataline as he was almost certainly outnumbered. This would allow him to try and win the battle with his few decent troops while his flanks were partly protected by terrain. So I would agree with the terrain and would make it all impassable.

When Cataline joined up with Manlius in Etruria he had 2 legions (approx 10,000 men), but only a quarter were properly armed. On the collapse of the rising in Rome many men deserted, but we can assume that these were probably mostly the men of the poorly armed rabble as when battle was joined he still had 8 cohorts (3-4,000 men) of good quality troops. These were placed in the front rank with the rest of the poorly armed men behind them and there would have been a few skirmishers in front as was usual and skirmishing is briefly mentioned by Sallust. Cataline was in the centre with veterans of Marius against the Cimbri. We also know that Manlius was in command of the right wing with some bloke from Faesulae in command of the left.

The Army of Petreius was described as being larger than 3 legions but with many lightly armed troops. Cataline probably attacked this army instead of the army of Metallus for that very reason. Petreius seems to have adopted a similar tactic as cataline and posted his best troops forward with himself in command of an elite "Praetorian" unit.

we Know Cataline got rid of all his horses. He probably didn't have alot of cavalry, didn't need them so much with his flanks protected and could do with well armed and trained soldiers to fight on foot in the main fight.

Hi guys,
here you will find scenario preview and Vassal VSAV file to playtest last Jim creation (Pistoria).